Bored? Go and watch this excellent animation on What The Brits Have Done For The Irish. It might be ever so slightly sarcastic.
From the comments on the same site, this quote is probably the best summary of (the positive side of) the relationship between the Irish and the English: "the ironic thing is… we have more in common with the so called brits than with any other country in the world… Same weather, mentality, drink culture, being fucked up by a monarchy for hundreds of years, ugly women that dress like hookers out on the lash on a sat night…"
Incidentally, why don’t the Irish hate the Scots? They were the ones who settled in Northern Ireland under Cromwell and actually slaughtered the natives to become the Ulster Protestants, not to mention making up a large proportion of the British Army over the years…
Incidentally, why don’t the Irish hate the Scots?
They do, or they hate the Protestant ones at any rate. It’s just that the picture is complicated somewhat because a sizeable proportion of Scots (roughly speaking the Catholic ones and Celtic supporters) are descended from 19th century, Irish immigrants, some of whom will support Ireland, in preferance to Scotland, in international football matches.
I take it you haven’t spent much time in Glasgow?
True – but a sizeable proportion of Londoners are also descended from C19 Irish immigrants, and this doesn’t really affect Irish anti-English feeling.
& I’ve spent about as much some time in Glasgow as I’d like to, which admittedly isn’t that much. Now, Edinburgh – there’s a good city…
You seem to have missed what I said. The premise of your question is wrong – Irish anti-Scottish feeling does exist. It’s just that because Irish sectarian politics has been transplanted so visibly into the west of Scotland, an Irishman is likely to be more nuanced in how he expresses his hatred for Scots.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t believe the Irish have had the same effect on London politics. For instance, if a school in a Protestant area is threatened with closure, will many of the parents automatically assume a conspiracy of Papists in the City Chambers?
Gotcha, sorry, yup. That makes sense – thanks for the explanation…
They do, or they hate the Protestant ones at any rate. It’s just that the picture is complicated somewhat because a sizeable proportion of Scots (roughly speaking the Catholic ones and Celtic supporters) are descended from 19th century, Irish immigrants, some of whom will support Ireland, in preferance to Scotland, in international football matches.
I take it you haven’t spent much time in Glasgow?
And you’ve spent how much time exactly in Ireland? Last time I checked, Glasgow was in Scotland.
Speaking as an Irish person who lives in Ireland, this strikes me as a load of bollox. Extrapolating from Old Firm matches to an entire country is unwise.
To answer your original question, I don’t think the Irish do hate the Scots. There was a piece of research a couple of years back which asked people in the Republic which of the four "home countries" they would support in a football tournament if the Republic wasn’t playing and Scotland came out either first or second, certainly well ahead of England.
The resentment against "England" (I don’t think it’s much of a resentment against individual English people, and "hatred" is overstating it) is probably because the voices of "authority" in the past tended to be English or Anglicised (landlords, military officers, Margaret Thatcher, etc.). Scots didn’t figure so much as figures of authority, and I also don’t think there’s an equivalence drawn by people between northern Unionists and Scots. Things may be slightly different among northern Nationalists – "Scottish" regiments had a reputation, certainly in the early years of the Troubles, as being more likely to have sectarian elementa than "English" regiments. But that may say more about Scotland than it does about Ireland.
At the same time, extrapolating Irish anti-English feeling to the whole of Ireland is surely a load of bollox too.
Anecdotal evidence from friends who have visited Ireland suggests that Irish anti-Scottish feeling does exist. And current events have done the courtesy of providing this example of the sort of thing I’m referring to.
How exactly is rioting between two bunches of sectarian headbangers in Northern Ireland, each supporting a different Scottish football team, an example of anti-Scottish feeling?
If Leeds and Millwall supporters smash up the place after a match, is that an example of anti-English feeling?
How exactly is rioting between two bunches of sectarian headbangers in Northern Ireland, each supporting a different Scottish football team, an example of anti-Scottish feeling?
It’s an example of what I mean when I said that an Irishman is likely to be more nuanced when expressing his hatred of Scots: he will distinguish between Scots who are his friends and Scots who are his enemies.
I take it you missed the point I originally made?
To be honest, I think the point you’re trying to make says more about your own prejudices than about anyone else’s.
The Rangers v Celtic thing is an expression of a sectarian prejudice which may have originated in northern Ireland, but which found fertile root in Scotland, particularly the west of Scotland (you might wish to ask yourself why it has continued to flourish there but not in other places), and which has gone in a macabre feedback loop back to its place of origin.
There was also trouble in Dublin on Saturday night involving supporters of Linfield (a "Protestant" club from Belfast who seem to model themselves on Glasgow Rangers) and supporters of Shamrock Rovers (a Dublin club whose supporters seem to model themselves on Glasgow Celtic). But most people on this side of the Irish Sea would view the trouble as arising from sectarian motives ("Protestant" v "Catholic") rather than having anything to do with Scottishness. Rangers and Celtic are convenient badges (and very profitable badges, too, for the two clubs’ merchandising departments) but the physical location of the two clubs is irrelevant as far as the headbanger element are concerned. The "hatred" is the hatred of the other side within their own country. And believe me, the "hatred" is to be found in abundance on both sides.
I’ll tell you again, as an Irish person who actually lives in Ireland (the real country, not your imagined Scotophobic comfort blanket), there is no particular dislike or hatred for Scotland or Scots in this country. Grudge-bearing bores, of any nationality, are another matter entirely.
But most people on this side of the Irish Sea would view the trouble as arising from sectarian motives ("Protestant" v "Catholic") rather than having anything to do with Scottishness.
This is precisely the point that I made. There is a sizeable proportion of Scots, whom a sectarian Irish Catholic would regard as brothers-in-arms, rather than an enemy. Any hatred will be expressed against a particular subset of Scots who support the wrong side in the Northern Irish troubles.
If you think "anti-Scottish feeling" is an inappropriate phrase to describe hatred or resentment against a particular group of Scots, then fine. But that’s an argument about semantics, and doesn’t affect my point.
I don’t regard Ireland as "Scotophobic", but I don’t accept that there is no resenment amongst some Irish against Scots who support the wrong side in the troubles.
This whole argument is beside the point. The real issue is: how could anyone prefer Embra to Glesgae? Madness, I tell you.
I don’t regard Ireland as "Scotophobic"
I’m very sorry to say this, but having read your earlier comments, I view that as a lie.
"[The Irish] do [hate the Scots], or they hate the Protestant ones at any rate"
"an Irishman is likely to be more nuanced when expressing his hatred of Scots"
I don’t think anyone reading that could have accused [b]you[/b] of being too nuanced.
Then you’re reading more into what I wrote than what I intended to say. John asked the question "why don’t the Irish hate the Scots?" because they appear to be more deserving of Irish hatred than the English, whom (John appears to think) they do hate. I didn’t take that to imply that John thinks that the Irish are anglophobic in general, so I didn’t think that he would interpret my comments as evidence that I view the Irish as scotophobic, in general. Hence, I didn’t think it would be necessary to spell out every caveat with infinite precision.
Or do you think the inferred view, that the Irish are anglophobic, in general, is an accurate one, and so needn’t be challenged?
> I didn’t think it would be necessary to spell out every caveat with infinite precision.
Welcome to the Internet.
I think the Irish hate the English because we don’t notice them. I recall Ian Paisley in the late 70s or so calling for a referendum on the mainland re the support for his particular band of loyalists, expecting the loyalism to be reciprocated, then backing off sharpish when he realised it wasn’t. Wasn’t there a line in the preamble to the GFI to the effect that the British Government really didn’t give a toss who eneded up with NI? Which insults, by indifference, the whole of Ireland.
Or do you think the inferred view, that the Irish are anglophobic, in general, is an accurate one, and so needn’t be challenged?
I discussed the extent and possible motivation of anti-English sentiment in Ireland in the second posting that I made on this thread. Reading it might answer your question.
If you think "anti-Scottish feeling" is an inappropriate phrase to describe hatred or resentment against a particular group of Scots, then fine. But that’s an argument about semantics, and doesn’t affect my point.
If I dislike a particular group of nationality X, then the question of whether or not I am displaying anti-Xishness depends on the motivation for that dislike.
For example, if someone hates the IRA because of their use of violence to achieve a particular political aim, I would not view that as displaying anti-Irishness.
If someone hates the IRA, not because of they disapprove of the type of actions they’ve done, but because of their nationality, then that may well be displaying anti-Irishness. An example might be someone who supports Loyalist paramilitaries carrying out the same type of action to achieve the opposite political aim.
Hence, I didn’t think it would be necessary to spell out every caveat with infinite precision.
I didn’t notice any precision being used at all.
I think the Irish hate the English because we don’t notice them.
<Grin> We’re well aware of the fact that we know more about you than vice versa, but the reasons for the resentment ("hatred" is really far too strong a word to use for it) are due to history. There may well be individuals who "hate" English people, but they’re no more representative of the general population than the BNP or the UKIP are of English people.
I recall Ian Paisley in the late 70s or so calling for a referendum on the mainland re the support for his particular band of loyalists, expecting the loyalism to be reciprocated, then backing off sharpish when he realised it wasn’t.
At the back of it all, I suspect a lot of northern Unionists are well aware of how popular they are in Britain. They’re not always that fond of English people.
Wasn’t there a line in the preamble to the GFI to the effect that the British Government really didn’t give a toss who eneded up with NI? Which insults, by indifference, the whole of Ireland.
Given that the Irish government and the nationalist parties in Northern Ireland lobbied to put that line there, you can assume that they didn’t feel too insulted by it.
I discussed the extent and possible motivation of anti-English sentiment in Ireland in the second posting that I made on this thread. Reading it might answer your question.
So, seeing as you don’t appear to view the Irish as anglophobic in general, why didn’t you respond to John’s comments with the same petulance that you responded to mine?
If I dislike a particular group of nationality X, then the question of whether or not I am displaying anti-Xishness depends on the motivation for that dislike.
Fine, but you’re arguing about semantics, not the substance of the point I made.
why didn’t you respond to John’s comments with the same petulance that you responded to mine?
Oh dear, have I hurt your feelings?
If you don’t like taking it, then think twice about giving it.
"You seem to have missed what I said. The premise of your question is wrong – Irish anti-Scottish feeling does exist. It’s just that because Irish sectarian politics has been transplanted so visibly into the west of Scotland, an Irishman is likely to be more nuanced in how he expresses his hatred for Scots."
You then pointed out:
"For instance, if a school in a Protestant area is threatened with closure, will many of the parents automatically assume a conspiracy of Papists in the City Chambers?"
Now that comes across to me as being an illustration of prejudice all right. It’s just that the subject and the object of the prejudice are the wrong way round for your argument.
If I dislike a particular group of nationality X, then the question of whether or not I am displaying anti-Xishness depends on the motivation for that dislike.
Fine, but you’re arguing about semantics, not the substance of the point I made.
No. Let me put it another way.
If I dislike Saddam Hussein because of his actions (gassing Kurds, etc.), does that make me anti-Arab or anti-Iraqi?
If I dislike the group of boozed-up Scottish Glasgow Rangers/Celtic (delete as applicable) supporters shouting sectarian slogans outside my window at half one in the morning, does that make me anti-Scottish?
The motivation for the dislike is what’s important. And if the motivation is the target’s political views rather than their nationality, then while the prejudice is sectarian, it’s not to do with nationality. Only if the prejudice was less strong against someone doing the same things but of a different nationality would your argument hold. And I don’t believe it does.
Oh dear, have I hurt your feelings?
If you don’t like taking it, then think twice about giving it.
But there has been nothing petulant in any of my comments.
"For instance, if a school in a Protestant area is threatened with closure, will many of the parents automatically assume a conspiracy of Papists in the City Chambers?"
Now that comes across to me as being an illustration of prejudice all right. It’s just that the subject and the object of the prejudice are the wrong way round for your argument.
No. It’s a description of what really does happen in Glasgow. It illustrates the fact that the sectarian politics of Northern Ireland has been transplanted into the west of Scotland in a way that it hasn’t been into London.
To make my argument, all I have to do is identify a significant group of Scots whom a sectarian Irish Catholic would regard as friends (such as the object of the prejudice described in the example), when there is no corresponding group of Londoners. Hence, any hatred that such an Irish Catholic expresses towards Scots will be to a particular group, and not generalised to Scots as a whole.
No. Let me put it another way.
Oh for God’s sake. I said "fine". That means that I conceded your point about whether "anti-Scottish feeling" is an appropriate expression. Twice.
The substance of my argument is that there do exist Irish who bear ill feeling towards Scots Protestants (or at least those express support for Loyalists), but not towards Scots Catholics. I notice that you’re not arguing with that.
> If I dislike the group of boozed-up Scottish Glasgow Rangers/Celtic (delete as applicable) supporters shouting sectarian slogans outside my window at half one in the morning, does that make me anti-Scottish?
Certainly does, yes, since that is Scottish culture and there are about a dozen Scots who don’t behave like that.
This whole argument is beside the point. The real issue is: how could anyone prefer Embra to Glesgae? Madness, I tell you.
You’re right. What kind of madness motivates a man to prefer one of Earth’s most beautiful cities to Western Europe’s best repository of Stalinist architecture?
The substance of my argument is that there do exist Irish who bear ill feeling towards Scots Protestants (or at least those express support for Loyalists), but not towards Scots Catholics. I notice that you’re not arguing with that.
Andy, that’s not what you said at the beginning. Instead, you came up with sweeping statements that "they" (the Irish in general) hated Scots. If your initial statement had been as, ehm, nuanced as the most recent one, I wouldn’t have spent the last day and a half arguing.
What I’ve been trying to say, Andy, is that there is no general feeling of ill-will, dislike or hatred towards Scots as Scots in this country. There simply isn’t.
there do exist Irish who bear ill feeling towards Scots Protestants (or at least those express support for Loyalists)
The important bit there is the bit in brackets. The reason why Loyalist-supporting Scots are strongly disliked by some people in Ireland (and I don’t disagree with you that that situation exists) is because they’re Loyalist-supporting. Not because they’re Scottish. There’s certainly a dislike of Glasgow Rangers – because of Rangers’ particular history of anti-Catholicism and the association of some of their supporters with Loyalism – but that would not extend to, say, Aberdeen or other Scottish clubs without those particular associations.
The only way in which dislike of Loyalist-supporting, anti-Catholic Scots because of those beliefs would count as anti-Scottishness, would be if those beliefs were considered core, indispensable parts of being Scottish. I wouldn’t insult any Scot by saying that, anymore than the behaviour exhibited by the worst type of Celtic supporters is a core, indispensable part of being Irish.
You began, Andy, by coming out with a sweeping statement about Irish people in general, and when I called you up on it, you said that we were simply more "nuanced" in our hatred of Scots. I found that, as an Irish person, insulting as well as untrue, and as a result, I took you to task on it. If you feel sore as a result, well then I’m very sorry about that.
To make my argument, all I have to do is identify a significant group of Scots whom a sectarian Irish Catholic would regard as friends (such as the object of the prejudice described in the example), when there is no corresponding group of Londoners.
There are plenty of London Irish who such a person might decide to "identify" with. I don’t think that particular part of your argument stands up.
As far as sectarianism in the west of Scotland goes, it’s an interesting question as to why it has lingered there long after it has died out everywhere else in Britain. Why is there no equivalent of the Celtic-Rangers poison in any English city? Why is it that the scenario you outlined about the school closure would be considered outlandish in Manchester or Birmingham or Hammersmith, but not in Glasgow or Airdrie? It can’t simply be due to relative degrees of Irish immigration.
The Irish definitely have some hatred towards the Scots. Here is a couple of examples of that hatred:
http://irishtribesman.blogspot.com/2005/04/scots-did-not-come-from-ireland.html
and
http://irishtribesman.blogspot.com/2005/04/scotland-offers-to-take-rejected.html
First of all, Im Scottish. Second of all, the scottish people, or the people with the name Scotii, way back in the roman times were from Ulster. They travelled to Scotland, or what was then known as Alba because they refused to answer to the high king of Ireland.
Fergus Mor Mac Erc, king of Dal Riata in Ulster, settled in the west of Scotland, and renamed a large portion of the land Dal Riada. Now The people already living in scotland, the old celtic tribes like the damnonnii, caledonii etc, grouped together as the Picts, were similar to the scotii, they both spoke simliar languages, the scotii speaking a version of celtic Q (gaelic), and the picts speaking a version of celtic P (closer to welsh). They had similar traditions too. It is also said that the scotii, had ginger hair, and they brought ginger hair to Scotland.
Later on, the scotii, took over the Pictish throne in alba through an arranged marraige, when the Scotii king at the time Kenneth MacAlpin, married a pictish princess. MacAlpin (Mac meaning son of) became the first king of a united Alba, which was soon to be known as Scotia, later Scotland.
The Irish and Scots have more similarities in their attitudes, ways of life and ways of thinking. (especially western scots, some of whom still speak gallic, taken from the old scotii’s gaelic). The english have anglo, saxon germanic attitudes and sense of humour.
That is the first reason for the irish and scots not to hate each other.
Another important reason was Robert The Bruce. The Bruce had a deep hatred of the english which is well known in Scotland. His hatred is mysterious because he was born below the clyde (strathclyde) a land which at the time was populated by people who never saw themselves as scottish or english as the land changed rule frequently. Nevertheless The Bruce hated the English. When he won at bannockburn and removed the english from scotland, The Bruce travelled to Ireland, where the english had were carrying out similar oppression to that in scotland. His army defeated the English in Ireland too.
So thats another reason for the irish and scottish to get along.
The next thing has to be english land purchasing, and more opression from the english.
The lords of manners, and the people in high places so to speak usually had allegiances to the king, or queen, who was based in england. (Note that the "British" monarchy was developed by james the 6th, a Scottish king, so its the fact that the monarchy were based in england that helps cause hatred to england) These lords of manners where who taxes were paid to, people resented them. In ireland and scotland there was a feeling "we are paying taxes to you, but your not helping us", the Highland and irish clearences to countries overseas like australia and america was a result of this. So both the irish and the scottish felt hard done by, the english were seen as the bullies, even if the lord of the manner was irish or scottish, they were often spoken about as being english.
And thats another reason.
Another reason, more modern, is hollywood. When mel gibson shows the irish and the scottish uniting in the movie braveheart (something there is no proof of ever happening, then scottish and irish people will feel a sense of unification.
There are other religious, sectarian reasons of course, but these are more to do with glasgow and two football teams. And there are also reasons for the scottish to hate the irish and vice versa. Its true that a large percantage of the british military is scottish, and allegiances post james the 6th were to britain more than just scotland. But that doesnt remove the similarities between the scots and the irish.
Anyway, who gives a damn?
Good post.
Yours truly,
John A. McKinnon
Very large parts of Scotland are more Anglo Saxon than the English. This Celtic myth which surrounds Scottish ethnicity is only one part of our heritage. The major part of the eastern part of the country has a longer Anglo Saxon heritage, slightly less diluted than the English Anglo Saxon one by invasion, but equally diluted by the continuing flow of human traffic within these islands for trade and social purposes.
People have continually travelled within these shores, irrespective of the clan/tribal/national boundaries, sometimes meeting with conflict but frequently with respect borne of commercial necessity (trade) and social interaction (storytelling, music, sex and procreation). William Wallace is reputed to have derived from the Wallensis tribe – "Wallensis" deriving from the word meaning Welsh.
National boundaries are set by the power elite, including monarchies, to establish and consolidate a power base and to exploit through taxation. Ordinary people have been less interested in this (having no power to consolidate) and have travelled wherever commercial necessity or survival dictated.
Nationalism is just a larger manifestation of the racist/sectarian divide. Why do many Americans* consider their country "the greatest country in the world" as opposed to Sweden, Switzerland, Italy or Turkey. No real reason that is distinguishable from the reasons why people support sectarian or racial ideas of tribal superiority.
To argue that "Irish people" think this or "Scottish people" do that is to fall into this trap. I am not defined by my country. I am defined by my thoughts, actions and social interactions – not by my geography. But I live in Edinburgh and have one of the Scottish accents.
(I only used the Americans as an example, but you could replace them with Germans, French, or any nationality you wish. I mentioned them because our news media is more likely to carry such pronouncements from American politicians who only have domestic opinion to worry about. Leaders of EU governments – with the exception of the late Charles de Gaulle, Margaret Thatcher- are usually more diplomatic in their sound bites)
i think that the scottish and irish hate each other because both are very patriotic and are proud of where there from. if you slang an irish persons home they take it to heart and so do most scots. they both stand up for there country and if you slang them off about it your in trouble.
i can tell you being irish and knowing what its like i can deffinatly tell you that its not because of the religion and it is just simply because both are very patriotic and will not have have anyone slang off there country and the the irish people that dont like the scotts are normally the ones who hate the whole country and its all leads back to the 800 years of oppretion in ireland that was because of the english so that is a big reason for not likein them and another is when the scotts talk down to the irish like they are more supperior than them that is another major facter of the equation