Eff eff ess

I broadly like the anti-war left (although their tendency to assume that Islamists are somehow not wrong, stupid, and opposed to all sane progressive goals is unfortunate). They even turned out to be closer to the correct position on Iraq than pro-war left-ish-ists like me. But sometimes… bah.

Geordie blogger Bykersink quotes Billy Bragg in his blog title and elsewhere, which makes him inherently cool. Although he’s a lot more pro-nationalisation than I’d generally view as reasonable, he’s still well worth reading. And I hope no-one’s under any illusions on my views about evil corrupt bigot George Bush.

But this is just fucking stupid (the link probably won’t work because Haloscan is rubbish, so you’ll either need to scroll down the Haloscan box or move your eys down a couple of centimetres):

I said month for month Bush has killed more [Iraqi] people than Hussain. God knows what Bush could achieve if he was in power as long as SH.

No wonder the conservatives think we’re shrill…

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8 thoughts on “Eff eff ess

  1. You added the (Iraqi) not me. He’s been in one term and fought two wars. Do you know my statement not to be accurate, or do you just think it is unreasonable anyway.

    I guess my point was this – we all know SH to be a an evil madman etc etc. But the point of view of our media draws a distinction between us and them. But if you want to limit it simply to the numbers of people killed under a regime (month by month) then my betting would be that Bush would come out ahead of SH. If you have figures to prove otherwise then I’ll gladly withdraw the commnet.

    However, I get the impressions it’s not the fact that you disagree with, it’s the fact that I have made the statement that you dislike. In which case I would ask, why shouldn’t the statement be made? Or are we, even in blogworld, self censoring ourselves? Are there statements that are unsayable? Even if they are true.

    As for your comments on Muslims – they are nothing short of racist.

  2. Final para first: I said "Islamists" not "Muslims"; Islamists are people who want government to be run according to Sharia law. This is not, according to general definitions, progressive. I don’t have anything against Muslims in general (although it wouldn’t be racist even if I did, since there’s no more connection between Islam and race than there is Christianity and race).

    In general: I’m sorry if the ‘Iraqi’ was incorrect – that was how I interpreted it from the context you used it in (and I think it’s pretty clearly marked as added by me).

    I was annoyed by your comment partly because it’s untrue, but partly because it doesn’t account for the fact that Saddam was a genocidal maniac whereas Bush is a reckless idiot – it’s like saying Gary Hart (sleepy Landrover rail crash driver, not failed Democratic presidential candidate) killed more people than Ian Huntley, and therefore is worse than him.

    Anyway, in terms of facts, if you’re referring to ‘people in general’:

    George Bush –

    Iraqi civilians and soldiers: 12000 (Iraq Body Count)
    US troops in Iraq: 887 (AntiWar.com)
    Afghan civilians and soldiers: 5000 (Marc Herold)
    US troops in Afghanistan: 129 (AntiWar.com)
    US executions, 2001-mid 2004: 234 (Bureau of Justice)

    Total: 18250
    Total per year: 5214

    Saddam Hussein
    Death toll from Iran war: 500,000 (low estimate from this aggregated source page
    Number of executions/’disappeared’s: 250,000 (from Human Rights Watch

    Total: 750,000
    Total per year: 30,000

    For them to be anywhere close, you’d need not only to reject the HRW estimate, but also assume that Saddam wasn’t responsible for any of the Iran/Iraq war deaths. Which would be silly.

  3. Damnit – I just answered this in full and your comments facility lost it all.

    In short, because I can’t be arsed to do it all again.

    Your bodycount figures are wrong, they only count civilian deaths.

    For wider figures look here:


    The other thing to take into account is that during the Iran/Iraq war the USA were backing SH. Speaking from a western position, it would be harsh, in this context to include these figures, when the USA were fully behind Iraq and SH.

    Take all these figures into account and there isn’t much to choose between Bush or Hussein.

    No doubt you will doubt my argument on this. Fair enough, perhaps the real argument should be – how many of these huge numbers have been killed by American weaponry.

  4. Sorry about my comments box, it can be temperamental about things.

    Even assuming 38K Afghan plus Iraqi troop deaths, Saddam is still on twice Bush’s score. In any case, the main thing which seemed wrong about the comparison – the Ian Huntley/Gary Hart difference – still applied.

    Given that most of the weaponry in Iraq was supplied by the Chinese, the Russians and the French, I suspect the amount of people killed by Yank guns in Iraq is fairly low.

    Look, we don’t really differ that much on the principles: the USA’s behaviour post-WWII in terms of arming vile regimes has been fucking horrible, Shrub is the worst ‘leader of the developed world’ since Nixon if not since Nero, and the shameless steamrollering to war on Iraq to satisfy a personal vendetta, justified by lies about terrorism, nukes and how the Iraqis would love us is absolutely disgusting.

    But when the real case is that strong, what’s the point in making up or believing untruths that paint them as marginally worse still? It just detracts from the anti-Bush, anti-imperialist project by making people in the middle (who are the majority of the ones voting in the US in November, and in the UK later on) think that we’re lying maniacs too…

    I guess in short – why lie that Bush is a genocidal maniac, when the truth that he’s dangerously incompetent is almost as bad?

  5. You know this is a serious topic…but now that you mention it, i could use a could banana slap…right on the chin…

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