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Comments on: Restoring the Caliphate http://sbbs.johnband.org/2005/07/restoring-the-caliphate/ As fair-minded and non-partisan as Torquemada. Wed, 07 Mar 2012 07:16:20 +0000 hourly 1 By: Squander Two http://sbbs.johnband.org/2005/07/restoring-the-caliphate/#comment-5351 Sun, 03 Jul 2005 18:50:00 +0000 http://sbbs.johnband.org/?p=1210#comment-5351 > Wahhabists won’t be able to bring prosecutions – only the Attorney General

Yes, I know, but he’ll do so in response to complaints. Who do you think will be complaining?

Jim,

You’ve got a fair point, but so has Blimpish.

> pointing out the law is used infrequently isn’t a good argument in favour of inequality under it.

The point isn’t so much that it’s used infrequently as why it’s used infrequently: jury nullification. We have a long and fine tradition in this country of effectively repealing laws without officially repealing them. Of course, this could perhaps be explained better to Muslims if it weren’t for every Government’s staunch opposition to ever admitting that jury nullification is possible.

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By: Bob http://sbbs.johnband.org/2005/07/restoring-the-caliphate/#comment-5350 Sun, 03 Jul 2005 12:15:00 +0000 http://sbbs.johnband.org/?p=1210#comment-5350 Does that mean that it is not true that:

"Most of this violent mass annihilation has essentially been financed by the larger Middle Eastern Muslim countries with Saudi Arabia as the primary financier".

Just wondered, since it should be relatively easy to bring up some counterfacts?

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By: Blimpish http://sbbs.johnband.org/2005/07/restoring-the-caliphate/#comment-5349 Sun, 03 Jul 2005 09:01:00 +0000 http://sbbs.johnband.org/?p=1210#comment-5349 Not to get into the other argument – but just a bit of background about the blasphemy thing. The ’77 case was a bit of an aberration even then, and the judgement was a surprise. With a nice bit of historic irony, I seem to recall that the judge in the case was Lord Scarman.

S2’s basically right though – it’s not a live issue, all the more so since the Human Rights Act. But the blasphemy law is just another feature of Establishment. Now, Muslim immigrants might well dislike Establishment – but it’s never been exactly a secret that this we have (formally) a Christian state, and to complain after you’ve take residency that this is somehow offensive to your basic rights seems a bit rum, to say the least.

(That’s not to say that Muslims couldn’t argue for Disestablishment, just not that this is somehow a matter of justice, life and death. After all, R.C.s are more explicitly discriminated against than Muslims – and few of them seem to give a stuff.)

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By: Jim Bliss http://sbbs.johnband.org/2005/07/restoring-the-caliphate/#comment-5347 Sun, 03 Jul 2005 07:58:00 +0000 http://sbbs.johnband.org/?p=1210#comment-5347 I don’t know, Squander Two, how often the Blasphemy Law has been used successfully since 1945. But even if Mary Whitehouse’s case in 1977 was the only instance since the war (it wasn’t by the way; I know of one other case in the 60s and I’m certain there have been others… albeit very few no doubt) that’s not; if I may say; a coherent argument against placing all religions on an equal footing under the law.

Let me reiterate that I am against this Incitement legislation. It’s vitally important you don’t mistake this for an argument in favour of the law (because it’s not). However there is – as I see it – a serious social problem that needs to be addressed. This law is an attempt to address it. It’s a bad attempt, but I’m honestly unsure as to what better approach there might be.

The dilemma, as I see it, is a simple one. Christianity is indeed protected by law; and pointing out the law is used infrequently isn’t a good argument in favour of inequality under it. Similarly jews are protected by the incitement to racial hatred legislation (as are Sikhs incidentally).

This leaves out a lot of us… atheists, buddhists, pagans, moslems, satanists, hindus, etc etc.

However, in the current cultural context it’s naive (or a deliberate misunderstanding) to deny that Islam is a special case amongst the "excluded faiths". There is (at least perceived to be) an opposition between Islam and Christianity on the one hand, and Islam and Judaism on the other. This is often cast as an opposition between Islam and Judeo-Christianity; though as rebikker illustrates there’s hardly universal love between Jewish and Christian culture.

So the issue, to me, is that a significant minority of the British population (one with a strong cultural identity) can – with good reason – feel that they are being discriminated against by a legal system willing to protect christians and jews but not them.

This is something I believe badly needs to be addressed. Such inequality can only work to increase friction within and between communities and provide extremists with a recruiting device.

Again, let me make clear, I am against this law. But I don’t know how else to address this dangerous (in my view) injustice.

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By: Andrew Bartlett http://sbbs.johnband.org/2005/07/restoring-the-caliphate/#comment-5348 Sun, 03 Jul 2005 07:58:00 +0000 http://sbbs.johnband.org/?p=1210#comment-5348 Wahhabists won’t be able to bring prosecutions – only the Attorney General – assuming that he is not a closet Wahhabist. Are you positing some kind of EUrabia theory that our government is a conspiracy to Islamacise Britain?

It is difficult to get from this law (however ill-thought out it may be) to Wahhabists controlling speech in Britain without using some kind of dangerous and aevidential theory much like those that argue that Jews control the world.

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By: john b http://sbbs.johnband.org/2005/07/restoring-the-caliphate/#comment-5346 Sun, 03 Jul 2005 07:56:00 +0000 http://sbbs.johnband.org/?p=1210#comment-5346 If you need an explanation for why the likes of Rebbiker and Neverdock are appalling, I’m disinclined to engage in conversation with you.

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By: Bob http://sbbs.johnband.org/2005/07/restoring-the-caliphate/#comment-5345 Sun, 03 Jul 2005 07:20:00 +0000 http://sbbs.johnband.org/?p=1210#comment-5345 John B

Are you going to put an argument forward for your moral indignation, or is that it?

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By: Squander Two http://sbbs.johnband.org/2005/07/restoring-the-caliphate/#comment-5340 Sat, 02 Jul 2005 20:33:00 +0000 http://sbbs.johnband.org/?p=1210#comment-5340 Jim,

I stand corrected. I had no idea anyone was still bothering with such crap that recently. There’s always one.

Still, how many prosecutions were there between, say, 1945 and 1977? And do we think the rate of prosecutions on behalf of aggrieved Wahhabists under the new law will be similar to or higher than that?

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By: Michael http://sbbs.johnband.org/2005/07/restoring-the-caliphate/#comment-5338 Sat, 02 Jul 2005 20:07:00 +0000 http://sbbs.johnband.org/?p=1210#comment-5338 here.]]> Though Jim is right that the last successful blasphemy prosecution was in 1977, the blasphemy laws were also invoked much more recently as a justification for the British Board of Film Classification refusing a certificate to (and thus effectively banning) a video called Visions of Ecstasy – a decision upheld all the way up to the European Court, whose 1994 ruling is summarised here.

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By: Jim Bliss http://sbbs.johnband.org/2005/07/restoring-the-caliphate/#comment-5335 Sat, 02 Jul 2005 16:50:00 +0000 http://sbbs.johnband.org/?p=1210#comment-5335 Squander Two, I’m not a fan of protecting religious belief by law. But it’s not fair to imply (as you do) that the Christian Blasphemy law has been ignored for a century or more.

The last successful prosecution using the Blasphemy Law was in 1977. Which, while pre-interweb, is hardly ancient history.

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