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Comments on: We’re not having that http://sbbs.johnband.org/2005/06/were-not-having-that/ As fair-minded and non-partisan as Torquemada. Wed, 07 Mar 2012 07:16:20 +0000 hourly 1 By: Squander Two http://sbbs.johnband.org/2005/06/were-not-having-that/#comment-5130 Tue, 28 Jun 2005 07:58:00 +0000 http://sbbs.johnband.org/?p=1197#comment-5130 Anyone see the latest research that shows that one’s native language has a marked influence on one’s melody-writing? English-speakers actually write a qualitatively different type of music to Dutch-speakers, whose music is in turn qualitatively different to that of Sanskrit-speakers, etc etc. Fascinating.

So there is a possibility that people’s not liking French or Spanish pop music could actually be for reasons other than the language. In some cases. Maybe. A bit.

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By: Larry http://sbbs.johnband.org/2005/06/were-not-having-that/#comment-5129 Tue, 28 Jun 2005 07:47:00 +0000 http://sbbs.johnband.org/?p=1197#comment-5129 I saw them when they played at the Barbican last year

I heard them live last year too, and apart from anything else I was struck by the singular virtuosity and originality of their drummer.

there are dozens, just dozens of equally talented piano trios playing largely similar stuff

Well you’ll be wrong then, particularly re drummer. They’re top-notch.

I just don’t like them.

Fair enough.

They’re trying to be Brad Mehldau

No they’re not. BM is largely restrained, subtle, intricate and wonderful. The BP are largely unrestrained, full-blown, intricate, and wonderful.

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By: dsquared http://sbbs.johnband.org/2005/06/were-not-having-that/#comment-5128 Tue, 28 Jun 2005 06:38:00 +0000 http://sbbs.johnband.org/?p=1197#comment-5128 Chris; it’s not so much a lack of ears as a lack of any Gillian Welch CDs to use them on. I’m sure she’s fantastic, but as I say, I’m sure that there are equally fantastic Portugese fado singers who I’ve also never heard of. I’m trying to use an at least in principle objective criterion.

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By: Jez http://sbbs.johnband.org/2005/06/were-not-having-that/#comment-5127 Tue, 28 Jun 2005 06:36:00 +0000 http://sbbs.johnband.org/?p=1197#comment-5127 Actually, the beginning of that comment was rather rude of me – sorry about that, Alan.

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By: Jez http://sbbs.johnband.org/2005/06/were-not-having-that/#comment-5126 Tue, 28 Jun 2005 06:03:00 +0000 http://sbbs.johnband.org/?p=1197#comment-5126 That was in response to Alan, by the way. And I know you didn’t say there was no good music in Europe, and in answer to your question "Has Europe produced one moment, just one moment like..[list]…?"

Yes. Plenty. The artists just aren’t marketed properly over here, because they’re minority interest.

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By: Jez http://sbbs.johnband.org/2005/06/were-not-having-that/#comment-5125 Tue, 28 Jun 2005 05:57:00 +0000 http://sbbs.johnband.org/?p=1197#comment-5125 No good music in continental Europe? Sorry, but that’s a load of old arse. Our blinkered, monoglot Anglo-Saxon prejudices prevent many artists being successful here and in Yankland because people simply can’t get past the fact that they’re not singing in English.

There’s a thriving Scandinavian jazz scene at the moment – Bugge Wesseltoft, Esbjorn Svensson Trio, Sidsel Endresen etc. – equally as innovative as the Manhattan scene myself and Larry are claiming to exist. So there.

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By: Chris Bertram http://sbbs.johnband.org/2005/06/were-not-having-that/#comment-5124 Tue, 28 Jun 2005 05:44:00 +0000 http://sbbs.johnband.org/?p=1197#comment-5124 Much as I hate to disagree with my CT-collaborator dsquared, nobody with ears could apply the NGM label to Gillian Welch and David Rawlings (but then you seem to have done so entirely on generic genre-related grounds – have a listen!!!)

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By: dsquared http://sbbs.johnband.org/2005/06/were-not-having-that/#comment-5121 Tue, 28 Jun 2005 04:53:00 +0000 http://sbbs.johnband.org/?p=1197#comment-5121 A few errata crept in above. I have heard of Van Der Graff Generator so they shouldn’t really be "NGM". Lester Young and Billie Holliday did record a few things in Manhattan, and Lester Young might even have recorded something there in the last 30 years, but not the recordings which might sensibly be called "great music". Aretha Franklin has recorded music in the last 30 years, but I maintain that it was mostly dreadful. I think that’s all.

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By: dsquared http://sbbs.johnband.org/2005/06/were-not-having-that/#comment-5119 Tue, 28 Jun 2005 04:46:00 +0000 http://sbbs.johnband.org/?p=1197#comment-5119 Oh dear … apparently the status of the proposition "Manhattan has produced more great music than Europe in the last thirty years" rests on the following artists:

(using the code "NM" for "Not Manhattan", "N30" for "not recorded in the last 30 years" and "NGM" for "Not great music", using here the criterion that a reasonably well-informed European listener, ie me, has never heard of them and presuming that Europe also has loads of obscure bands with their own passionate advocates)

The Clash (NM)
The Fall (NM)
Elvis Costello (NM)
Wire (NM)
Gang of Four (NM)
Graham Parker (NM)
Van der Graaf Generator (NM, NGM)
Stan Tracey (NM, NGM)
Pete King (NM, NGM)
Art Themen (NM, NGM)
New Order (NM)
Charlie Parker (N30)
Lester Young (NM, N30)
"Billy", I presume Billie Holiday (NM, N30)
Aretha (presumably Franklin) (NM, N30)
Martha (presumably Reeves) (NM, N30)
(or possibly "and the Muffins", NM, NGM)
The Supremes (NM, N30)
Otis (presumably Redding) (NM, N30)
"soul, luuurve": Detroit is not in Manhattan, nor is Muscle Shoals and nor are the Stax studios, nor is Philly.
"bambambambam": possibly a reference to Afrika Bambaata, but unfortunately he made most of his music in Brooklyn.
Horses (yes! Manhattan and recorded in 1975!)
Astral Weeks (Van Morrison, N30)
London Calling (Clash, NM)
Slates (The Fall, NM)
Darkness on the Edge of Town (arguable. Springsteen is definitely NM because New Jersey, but this particular album was recorded at the Power Station studio)
"Gillian Welch albums" (NM, Nashville is not in Manhattan. Also NGM as entirely obscure country & western)
"David Rawlings" (NGM for sure, I think also NM as google seems to list him as a collaborator of Gillian Welch)
"The First Velvet’s album" (N30)
"Exile on Main Street" (N30, NM, actually recorded in France)
"Kind of Blue" (N30)
"Billy’s duets with Lester Young" (N30)
Wilko Johnson’s eyes and Lee (presumably Brilleaux) voice (Dr. Feelgood, NM)

I think someone could draw a Venn diagram of the ways in which you’ve missed the target here. Your main problem appears to be thinking that Manhattan is bigger than it is, followed by thinking that the last thirty years began in 1965 (this is a common problem among men of a certain age). I think that the defence here has

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By: Alan Johnson http://sbbs.johnband.org/2005/06/were-not-having-that/#comment-5115 Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:25:00 +0000 http://sbbs.johnband.org/?p=1197#comment-5115 I wasn’t thinking of Britain as being in ‘Europe’ when I wrote that! (Clash, Fall, Pistols, Elvis Costello, Wire, Gang of Four, Graham Parker and the Rumour, and of course the mighty Van ger Graaf Generator, and Stan Tracey, Pete King, Art Themen, etc). I was a student in Manchester 1980-84 so I take Alex’s point. You could see the Fall one night and then Stan Tracey at band on the wall the next andf then bump into that bloke who became James in the middle of the night back at the flat. I saw New Order’s first ever gig: they were soooo late on stage but kicked in and everyone breathed a sigh of relief that, well something, wasn’t over. And yes, I really should have said ‘post-war’ to get in the jazz greats, Charlie Parker, Lester Young, Billy, and the rest, whom I had in mind in making the claim. I dont do techno; give me a CD title to lsten to, please. Have you seen the Lenny Henry sketch about techno music compared to soul music? I didnt even mention soul!: aretha, martha, the supremes:

soul. luuuuuuuuuuuuve, …bambambambamabam.

Otis, and the rest. Otherwise, seems fair comment to me. Has Europe produced one moment, just one, like Horses? or Astral Weeks? Or London calling? Or Slates? Or Darkness on the Edge of Town? Or any of the four Gillian Welch albums? Or David Rawlings guitar work? Or the first Velvet’s album? Or Exile on Main Street? Or Kind of Blue? Or Billy’s duets with Lester Young? or Wilko Johnson eyes and Lee’s voice as they kick into Back in the Night? The Defence rests.

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