People have continually travelled within these shores, irrespective of the clan/tribal/national boundaries, sometimes meeting with conflict but frequently with respect borne of commercial necessity (trade) and social interaction (storytelling, music, sex and procreation). William Wallace is reputed to have derived from the Wallensis tribe – "Wallensis" deriving from the word meaning Welsh.

National boundaries are set by the power elite, including monarchies, to establish and consolidate a power base and to exploit through taxation. Ordinary people have been less interested in this (having no power to consolidate) and have travelled wherever commercial necessity or survival dictated.

Nationalism is just a larger manifestation of the racist/sectarian divide. Why do many Americans* consider their country "the greatest country in the world" as opposed to Sweden, Switzerland, Italy or Turkey. No real reason that is distinguishable from the reasons why people support sectarian or racial ideas of tribal superiority.

To argue that "Irish people" think this or "Scottish people" do that is to fall into this trap. I am not defined by my country. I am defined by my thoughts, actions and social interactions – not by my geography. But I live in Edinburgh and have one of the Scottish accents.

(I only used the Americans as an example, but you could replace them with Germans, French, or any nationality you wish. I mentioned them because our news media is more likely to carry such pronouncements from American politicians who only have domestic opinion to worry about. Leaders of EU governments – with the exception of the late Charles de Gaulle, Margaret Thatcher- are usually more diplomatic in their sound bites)

Yours truly,

John A. McKinnon

Fergus Mor Mac Erc, king of Dal Riata in Ulster, settled in the west of Scotland, and renamed a large portion of the land Dal Riada. Now The people already living in scotland, the old celtic tribes like the damnonnii, caledonii etc, grouped together as the Picts, were similar to the scotii, they both spoke simliar languages, the scotii speaking a version of celtic Q (gaelic), and the picts speaking a version of celtic P (closer to welsh). They had similar traditions too. It is also said that the scotii, had ginger hair, and they brought ginger hair to Scotland.

Later on, the scotii, took over the Pictish throne in alba through an arranged marraige, when the Scotii king at the time Kenneth MacAlpin, married a pictish princess. MacAlpin (Mac meaning son of) became the first king of a united Alba, which was soon to be known as Scotia, later Scotland.

The Irish and Scots have more similarities in their attitudes, ways of life and ways of thinking. (especially western scots, some of whom still speak gallic, taken from the old scotii’s gaelic). The english have anglo, saxon germanic attitudes and sense of humour.

That is the first reason for the irish and scots not to hate each other.

Another important reason was Robert The Bruce. The Bruce had a deep hatred of the english which is well known in Scotland. His hatred is mysterious because he was born below the clyde (strathclyde) a land which at the time was populated by people who never saw themselves as scottish or english as the land changed rule frequently. Nevertheless The Bruce hated the English. When he won at bannockburn and removed the english from scotland, The Bruce travelled to Ireland, where the english had were carrying out similar oppression to that in scotland. His army defeated the English in Ireland too.

So thats another reason for the irish and scottish to get along.

The next thing has to be english land purchasing, and more opression from the english.

The lords of manners, and the people in high places so to speak usually had allegiances to the king, or queen, who was based in england. (Note that the "British" monarchy was developed by james the 6th, a Scottish king, so its the fact that the monarchy were based in england that helps cause hatred to england) These lords of manners where who taxes were paid to, people resented them. In ireland and scotland there was a feeling "we are paying taxes to you, but your not helping us", the Highland and irish clearences to countries overseas like australia and america was a result of this. So both the irish and the scottish felt hard done by, the english were seen as the bullies, even if the lord of the manner was irish or scottish, they were often spoken about as being english.

And thats another reason.

Another reason, more modern, is hollywood. When mel gibson shows the irish and the scottish uniting in the movie braveheart (something there is no proof of ever happening, then scottish and irish people will feel a sense of unification.

There are other religious, sectarian reasons of course, but these are more to do with glasgow and two football teams. And there are also reasons for the scottish to hate the irish and vice versa. Its true that a large percantage of the british military is scottish, and allegiances post james the 6th were to britain more than just scotland. But that doesnt remove the similarities between the scots and the irish.

Anyway, who gives a damn?

http://irishtribesman.blogspot.com/2005/04/scots-did-not-come-from-ireland.html

and

http://irishtribesman.blogspot.com/2005/04/scotland-offers-to-take-rejected.html

Andy, that’s not what you said at the beginning. Instead, you came up with sweeping statements that "they" (the Irish in general) hated Scots. If your initial statement had been as, ehm, nuanced as the most recent one, I wouldn’t have spent the last day and a half arguing.

What I’ve been trying to say, Andy, is that there is no general feeling of ill-will, dislike or hatred towards Scots as Scots in this country. There simply isn’t.

there do exist Irish who bear ill feeling towards Scots Protestants (or at least those express support for Loyalists)

The important bit there is the bit in brackets. The reason why Loyalist-supporting Scots are strongly disliked by some people in Ireland (and I don’t disagree with you that that situation exists) is because they’re Loyalist-supporting. Not because they’re Scottish. There’s certainly a dislike of Glasgow Rangers – because of Rangers’ particular history of anti-Catholicism and the association of some of their supporters with Loyalism – but that would not extend to, say, Aberdeen or other Scottish clubs without those particular associations.

The only way in which dislike of Loyalist-supporting, anti-Catholic Scots because of those beliefs would count as anti-Scottishness, would be if those beliefs were considered core, indispensable parts of being Scottish. I wouldn’t insult any Scot by saying that, anymore than the behaviour exhibited by the worst type of Celtic supporters is a core, indispensable part of being Irish.

You began, Andy, by coming out with a sweeping statement about Irish people in general, and when I called you up on it, you said that we were simply more "nuanced" in our hatred of Scots. I found that, as an Irish person, insulting as well as untrue, and as a result, I took you to task on it. If you feel sore as a result, well then I’m very sorry about that.

To make my argument, all I have to do is identify a significant group of Scots whom a sectarian Irish Catholic would regard as friends (such as the object of the prejudice described in the example), when there is no corresponding group of Londoners.

There are plenty of London Irish who such a person might decide to "identify" with. I don’t think that particular part of your argument stands up.

As far as sectarianism in the west of Scotland goes, it’s an interesting question as to why it has lingered there long after it has died out everywhere else in Britain. Why is there no equivalent of the Celtic-Rangers poison in any English city? Why is it that the scenario you outlined about the school closure would be considered outlandish in Manchester or Birmingham or Hammersmith, but not in Glasgow or Airdrie? It can’t simply be due to relative degrees of Irish immigration.

You’re right. What kind of madness motivates a man to prefer one of Earth’s most beautiful cities to Western Europe’s best repository of Stalinist architecture?

Certainly does, yes, since that is Scottish culture and there are about a dozen Scots who don’t behave like that.

If you don’t like taking it, then think twice about giving it.

But there has been nothing petulant in any of my comments.

"For instance, if a school in a Protestant area is threatened with closure, will many of the parents automatically assume a conspiracy of Papists in the City Chambers?"

Now that comes across to me as being an illustration of prejudice all right. It’s just that the subject and the object of the prejudice are the wrong way round for your argument.

No. It’s a description of what really does happen in Glasgow. It illustrates the fact that the sectarian politics of Northern Ireland has been transplanted into the west of Scotland in a way that it hasn’t been into London.

To make my argument, all I have to do is identify a significant group of Scots whom a sectarian Irish Catholic would regard as friends (such as the object of the prejudice described in the example), when there is no corresponding group of Londoners. Hence, any hatred that such an Irish Catholic expresses towards Scots will be to a particular group, and not generalised to Scots as a whole.

No. Let me put it another way.

Oh for God’s sake. I said "fine". That means that I conceded your point about whether "anti-Scottish feeling" is an appropriate expression. Twice.

The substance of my argument is that there do exist Irish who bear ill feeling towards Scots Protestants (or at least those express support for Loyalists), but not towards Scots Catholics. I notice that you’re not arguing with that.